004: The Accidental Lawyer
Meet Josh Crowther • Taree NSW
Bachelor of Laws with First Class Honors at Newcastle University
"That was really good at getting you decent on your feet before a magistrate." In this episode we chat to Josh Crowther, a Wills & Estate expert at Stacks Law Firm in Taree, who completed a Bachelor of Laws with First Class Honors at Newcastle University.
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Intro 00:13
Hey there. Thank you for joining us for Six Degrees of Study: An Uneducational Podcast. Today we have Josh Crowther, a Wills & Estate expert at Stacks Law Firm in Taree, who completed a Bachelor of Laws with First Class Honors at Newcastle University. We want to show you how it's highly likely there's only six degrees of separation between you the career and the life you want. This is the Six Degrees Podcast.
Donna 00:36
Hi Josh.
Josh 00:37
Hello, how are you?
Donna 00:38
I should introduce myself. My name is Donna Ballard and I'm the CEO of the Taree Universities Campus, which is hoping to kick off in 2020. So we'd just like to ask you a few questions about your journey through life with your degree and your work and all of that stuff that makes Josh what Josh is. Just for a background, I guess, tell us a bit about how your life is right now. I know on a personal basis, but then professionally as well, where are you placed?
Josh 01:03
Right? So I'm 38 years of age, right at this point in time, although I do turn 39 in about two weeks, unfortunately. And I've got four children. While you're talking about personal life, we've got four children and married, live in the local area. And professionally, I'm a solicitor. I work at Stacks Law Firm in Taree. I'm a Wills and Estates solicitor, a specialist in that type of area. I don't really do any other type of work apart from that, actually. And, yeah, that's where I'm at.
Donna 01:37
It sounds like a pretty serious job.
Josh 01:39
Does it? Yeah, it's fun. I like it.
Donna 01:43
What was your journey through high school and university - your path - to where you are Now? How did the study side of that go?
Josh 01:50
Yes, I'm probably a lot different. Quite a bit different for most people, actually. In the path to university I actually, for the most part of high school I actually did homeschooling. I didn't enjoy high school so much at all, actually. And during that process, mum and dad took me out of the standard school system. And we did homeschooling and I loved it, to be honest. It meant that, I think school can - without getting into a different area of a different topic - I think that the standard schooling can be great for a lot of people, but not necessarily ideal for some other people. And doing the homeschooling was great, because I just love learning. And I could just sit down for 12 hours in a day and just do one topic and just had the best day of my life, and then change topics and do that again. And I just was able to do it that way. And that's basically what I did. And so I ended up doing high school that way. And then at the end of year 12, I sat exams and did all of that kind of stuff, and then ended up having a choice on what to do. And so I ended up going into Communications, into Journalism.
Donna 03:11
And where was that at, Josh? Where did you move to?
Josh 03:17
Newcastle University. So I only had to move an hour and a half down there.
Donna 03:21
It's a very common choice for around here.
Josh 03:23
Yeah. And it was good, because I wasn't far from home. And it was a great lifestyle, to be honest. I enjoyed it, the actual degree that I did, I wouldn't say that I loved it. And in fact, after a year, or a year and a half, I thought, "Oh, my goodness, why am I doing this?" I ended up only doing something like, 8 or 9 or 10 hours potentially a week, which I thought was unbelievable compared to what I had been doing. I just thought it wasn't right, that you can only do 8 or 10 hours of university lectures and tutorials a week.
Donna 03:59
And that was classed as a full time load?
Josh 04:00
That was a full time load. I spent a lot of my time socializing and going out and doing what a lot of other students do at the time - going out on Wednesday nights, student nights, and on the Friday nights and Saturday nights, sometimes Sunday nights. And so I became, you know, interested in that. I love uni. I mean, and that's part of the reason I love the course. But the reason I ended up changing the course into a different area, which was law, obviously, was because I saw the writing on the wall with respect to where the media was going in journalism in particular, and so probably ended up being a sage decision, and ended up changing at the time. I was with a girlfriend who was studying law, and I was doing the Communications (Journalism) and I went along to one or two of her lectures.
Donna 04:51
How many years had you been doing the Communications degree? Was this choice early in the start? You could easily switch across and not have to pay costs? O were you almost completed?
Josh 05:02
I think it was the second year, maybe halfway. It was a three year degree from memory. And I was probably halfway through where I realized "I really don't want to be doing this". I'd always been into creative writing. And my feeling with the communications degree was that it sapped the creativity out of the writing, because it was journalism. So you just coming up with the main topic, and then going backwards from there, and it was so boring for me. And so I realized it probably halfway through that I didn't want to do it, but in saying that, I'm one for finishing things. So I wanted to finish it, I was committed, and I wasn't gonna not do it. But luckily, some of the topics that I chose to study in the ensuing year and a half year, were able to be pushed across into Law. I just think that's such a common story that people tell. You go to Uni thinking, "this is going to be my degree, this is what I'm doing". And you focused on that. But so often you start a course and go, "that's not for me", and you end up varying into something else. I think it's reassuring to hear that because often you think you've got to make all your decisions early, and then it's all set in stone and that you can't change. So it's good to know you can flick across.
Donna 06:15
Did you find that difficult? Flicking across? Not at all, it was the best decision I made. I mean, I finished my journalism degree. So it's not like I went across and finished halfway, and then went into something else. So I did finish it. Whether that was the right or wrong choice. I don't know. It ended up being a good choice, I think. But I was happy to stay on at university. I mean, the question at the time, was at the end of the communications degree, should I go out and get a job in Sydney? And it was so competitive at the time, not that I applied for anything, but I was aware that it was super competitive. I mean, there were thousands of people going for a job: Junior Journalist at Fairfax, or something like that. And I just thought, "wow, if it's that competitive now, then I'm just not sure how many journalists are going to be left after a few years in this kind of a game". It's been such a change in that industry.
Josh 07:06
Drastic. I mean, I think I probably would have liked it, but no. To answer your question. I didn't regret it at all. And, in fact, it was the best thing I did. Because I guess from the perspective, intellectually, it was just so enjoyable. I mean, it was where I said before it was 8 or 10 hours for communications, I mean, this thing, absorbed my life. I mean, I would still go out occasionally. But, I mean, I was up until 2 or 3am, every morning, for pretty much you know, the next three years, or whatever it was.
Donna 07:40
So how long is a law degree?
Josh 07:44
I think it's five years if you do the double degree.
Donna 07:48
So by this time, you'd had your three years of communications degree, five years of law?
Josh 07:55
Well, three years of the communications, and I think the three years of law would have been six, I'm guessing - I can't remember that far back. It's amazing what time does. But it was six or seven years, it would have been all up, but because I had the other degree in the communications, that meant that I could qualify for the law, which was a double degree.
Donna 08:14
Yeah. Sounds impressive.
Josh 08:16
I don't think you can do law at Newcastle University on its own. I think that you have to have either a business or communications or arts or you know, one of the other type of degrees to add it with the law because normally, if you're doing say a business degree or something, then you'll do three subjects of business and one of law for the first year. They don't give you too much law and then they build it up over time. But when I did it, because I'd done the first degree, I just went straight into the law and was doing the full 4 subjects. Which was it which was a incredible change to my....
Donna 08:54
Lifestyle.
Josh 08:55
Yeah.
Donna 08:57
Uni lifestyle. So you've got to the point of, I've finished law, I've graduated. What happens then? Did you have a job that you are ready to walk into? Had you done some kind of initiating of that while you were still at Uni to firm up a place to work? Was it a competitive environment for law?
Josh 09:14
Yeah, it's funny. With doing law, it's it felt to me at the time and I think it's probably still the case where they guide you down almost a commercial line, which is going to the big commercial firms in Sydney. And that was kind of the, the way in which you had made it I guess. But for me, I ended up doing a summer clerkship at a place called Sparke Helmore which was the biggest law firm in Newcastle at the time, and I did that for the summer holidays, whether it was six weeks or 12 weeks, I can't remember. But that was fantastic. Because it made me realize that's not what I particularly wanted to do. That's nothing against that firm, it was just that I didn't really like that commercial line, which is what they particularly practiced in. And so I finished that. And then at the end of the degree, what had happened is my dad actually got a little bit sick. And so I came home to just stay with him. I wasn't sure whether it was going to be two weeks or three weeks or three months type of thing. But I was there. And one of my friends from primary school, she worked at a law firm in Foster actually, over at Bromhead Legal. So Steve Bromhead - local member - he asked her to contact me to see whether I wanted to go and work for him. So that happened. And then I thought, yeah, sure, I'll go and do it. I wasn't expecting to go into a local area, I guess I was thinking I would ultimately go back to Newcastle, which I loved, or potentially Sydney, although I didn't particularly want to go to Sydney. But anyway, I took this on. And then one thing led to another and I was doing a bit of everything. I was thrown into general law. But at the time, I remember the thing that I loved most was criminal law. And so straight away, I was over at the courthouse representing criminals, defendants, and I did Legal Aid at the time. So we do Legal Aid work, which means that you're constantly dealing with a lot of clients because it's free or paid by the government. And so I've got a lot of experience there.
Donna 11:23
Pretty wide and varied work, I'd imagine.
Josh 11:26
Yeah. Well, particularly the criminal. I mean, that's specific. But that was really good at getting you decent on your feet before a magistrate.
Donna 11:38
So this is your first year out?
Josh 11:42
Yeah, I think it was even before I had my admission certificate that I was doing that kind of stuff.
Donna 11:50
Had you been working while you're going through uni? Were you working in legal practice? Like getting a bit of insight into what at all, before your summer job? Or did you did you work at all through uni?
Josh 12:01
No. I did work through uni but not in a legal field. I was working at a brother in law's grocery store in Beaumont Street in Hamilton actually was just on Tuesday mornings stocking, whatever you put on the shelves of a grocery store.
Donna 12:19
Nice easy job.
Josh 12:20
Yeah. I mean, that was fine. I just remember working from them six in the morning until two in the afternoon on a Tuesday, which happened to be at a period that I could make work. And that was really good for just adding a bit of money to my pocket. I was on Austudy at the time. Yeah. Or the equivalent of what it I'm not sure what it's called now. But I was lucky enough that I was able to get that which helped a lot. Because you don't really have a great deal of money going through university and I can...
Donna 12:48
Were you living on campus?
Josh 12:50
No, I didn't live on campus. That was pretty expensive. I remember paying $60 a week to live with these two wonderful gentlemen. Tim and Matt, my best friends. And they turned out to be my best friends. I knew Tim from up here, he was a year ahead of me. Out at Coolongoolook. He went on to be pretty successful in the IT world and my friend Matt, who just became a best mate. But yeah, 60 bucks a week. And I don't you get that anymore. But it was living with, you know, my best mates. It was just, it was a hovel of a house. Absolutely hovel.
Donna 13:22
That seems to us the kind of expectation really,
Josh 13:25
And I'd say for at least six months, I'll lounge was an old mattress.
Donna 13:29
I thought that was you know, the fourth bedroom for someone else.
Josh 13:33
It was for a while.
Donna 13:35
So from Bromhead legal, that was a short term job? You expected that was a short term job?
Josh 13:43
I expected it to be as a short term job, but then it became a full time job and, you know, just gonna stay there. But at the time, I think Steve, I think he had a car accident. Sorry for sounding so vague. I just, I can't remember that far back so well. But he had a car accident, it was pretty severely battered up. But at the time, he was in the process of going into politics and he was going to sell the business somewhere else, or to somebody else. And so I thought, I wasn't at that stage. I'd only been a year or two out. And so I wasn't ready to take on a law firm on my own, which was a possibility. And I thought about potentially going down that field as well, down that line, but I didn't. So I applied to a place in Newcastle, a really well known place down there to practice particularly in wills and estates. And also at one of these legal education, things that you have to do as part of the law. I went to one of those and I think I met up with Justin Stack from the law firm at that point, or he'd heard of me or something. And I called him at the same time that I was applying for a job in Newcastle and he said, come over for an interview. So I went over there and I already had been offered the job in Newcastle but then I hadn't accepted at that point in time. I said, I just needed another few days to talk or to think about it. And then Justin offered me the job. And I shook his hand on the day. And part of the reason for that it was because I've met a girl, who is now my wife at the time. I'd only been with her for maybe three months, six months. I'm not sure what it was. But I didn't particularly want to go down in Newcastle at that time, because we're trying to negotiate that new relationship. And so doing long distance or asking her to come or something like thatwasn't an option, because she's University educated as well. So it would have been a big move for her.
Donna 15:32
Yeah. And she's now here with you locally with you've got four kids, and there you go.
Josh 15:37
She's a scientist. She did science. And she works in the labs, you know, looking at blood. Yeah, she was previously with Laverty. But now she's with Douglass Hanly Moir. So she actually works in Taree now. Now that she's doesn't need to be a full time mum.
Donna 15:44
Yeah. So thinking back to when you were 18 year old Josh, what do you wish someone had have said to you, then that might have given you a bit of a plan for your future? That was a bit more?
Josh 16:06
Oh, it's a funny question. That because there's nothing specific that I'd want to change. I mean, you go through bits and pieces of your life where you think, "oh, would have been good if I didn't do that. Or if that didn't happen, or if I didn't meet that person, or, you know, it wasn't in that relationship". But unless you're in all of those things, then you're potentially not going to reach the part where you're at now that you know, the butterfly effect. So I don't regret anything. I don't wish anybody had told me anything. I guess, having said that, I would have liked to have known at the time, that the going into that kind of a more generalized degree like communications probably wasn't the way to go. But like I say, if I didn't do that, and I didn't transition later on, which only happened because of the choice of girlfriend I was with at the time and a variety of other little things. Unless it happened like that, I probably wouldn't be a lawyer, I wouldn't be a lawyer at all, potentially, I wouldn't be up here in Taree.
Donna 17:07
Yeah, it's all paths that lead to that one path that you're on now. And so who knows what happens for the next 10 or 20 years anyways?
Josh 17:14
And probably the advice I received at the time from my dad, or I just don't remember, but I think it would have just been a generalized, "just take it easy, don't stress too much. things will work out." And you know, that's kind of what happens, you just move with the punches. Yeah. It's not even punches, you just move along with the way the waters moving and go with the flow and end up doing whatever you're doing, and you won't know any different. And if I hadn't done this, I'd be doing something else that I may or may not enjoy so much. And then I'd move on to something else if I didn't.
Donna 17:49
Do you think if you had have had the opportunity back then for local education here, like what we're setting up with TUC - would that have changed your path at all? Were you eager to move away from home anyway, and it was a path that you wanted to be on? Or would it have made it simpler to have studied locally, I just I just like to get people's perspective, I guess, because I think a lot of people like to move away and, you know, sample a life they haven't sampled yet. And it's all part of the growing experience. Whereas others might prefer to stay local, if they've got responsibilities at home, or maybe a cost factor that makes it easy for them to stay here for the first few years. So I guess I'm just keen, when I chat to people, to see what your thoughts are around that?
Josh 18:32
Yeah, I wasn't somebody that was busting to get out of the house. I remember at the time that it happened, I guess, when I was 18, my parents had separated. But that wasn't really an issue for me or for my choice. But I was happy to move to Newcastle. But at the same time, I think that if law was something that was on offer in the local area, or I guess, a course that I was interested in the local area, because I didn't know I was going do law until I fell into my degree. I think that I probably would have thought it's a great thing, because perhaps just being more comfortable in the local area, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I think retrospectively, it was good to get away. But yeah, I think it would be great to have that option in the local area, especially if you're in a situation where it's difficult to get away. And certainly finances can come into that, you know, if you don't get the the Austudy or the equivalent thereof, and you don't have financial security from parents or something, which I didn't, then perhaps it wouldn't have been an option to move to Newcastle, and therefore this would have been brilliant. Moving into that area.
Donna 19:44
Yeah. But like you said, you just got to go with the flow with what comes up in your life as your life's there. So we're just hoping that we can offer more choices, I guess, for local people to either stay here or move away, at least to have that local choice. So thank you, Josh. I appreciate you making your time available today.
Josh 20:02
I appreciate the opportunity to chat about myself.
Donna 20:07
Lovely to hear from you.
Outro 20:09
Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Six Degrees Podcast. This podcast is produced by Upbound Business Consultants and is brought to you by Taree Universities Campus. Based on the New South Wales Barrington Coast, TUC is a hub for supporting Distance Education study for university students with campus facilities, mentoring, post grad career opportunities and more. If you'd like to share your story, you can send us an email at podcast@tareeuni.org.au and let us know your unconventional road to a degree. Until next time.