001: A Different Kind of Doctor
Meet Dr Grant Saunders • Taree NSW
Master of Arts (Honors) from the Australian Film, Television & Radio School
"I had sort of realized that education is power." In this episode, we chat to Dr Grant Saunders - a DCA candidate and freelance filmmaker who received a Master of Arts (Honors) from the Australian Film, Television & Radio School, who originally wanted to be a different kind of Doctor. Listen to his winding road to unimaginable success.
Subscribe now on your favourite podcast platform:
Transcript
Download the Transcript here (PDF)
Intro 00:12
Hi there. Thank you for joining us for Six Degrees of Study: An Uneducational Podcast. Today we have Grant Saunders, a DCA candidate and freelance filmmaker who received a Master of Arts (Honors) from the Australian Film, Television and Radio School. We want to show you how it's highly likely there's only six degrees of separation between you, the career and the life you want. This is the Six Degrees Podcast.
Donna 00:37
Hey, welcome Grant.
Grant 00:39
That was a funky intro! That was lovely.
Donna 00:41
Yeah, nice bit of funky music to get us relaxed and in the vibe. Thank you so much for making your time available. When I was first thinking about doing these podcasts, I was thinking: "Who are the inspirational people in our area?" And your name came, of course, to the front of my mind. I'm a big fan of your filmmaking and what you have done. People may know you from Teach A Man to Fish. Brilliant film. But I know you've done lots of other things as well, which we will talk about. But just firstly, thank you just want to acknowledge you making the time available.
Grant 01:11
Thanks so much for bringing me in and thinking about me.
Donna 01:14
Of course. So just I guess to fill people in a little bit, where are you at at the moment? What's currently happening both personally and in your business / commercial life? I guess just a little summary of life for Grant at the moment?
Grant 01:29
Well, right at the moment, I'm sort of at the tail end / pointy end of writing my exegesis, which is equivalent to a thesis. Well, it's, you know, 30% of a thesis, it's traditional PhD is 100,000 words, whereas mine's a creative PhD, or what's called a doctor of creative arts. So 70% of that is creative production. And mine is another documentary. And so I've got to write 30,000 words for it, which I've done - more than that, actually. 49,000 is what ended up as.
Donna 02:08
Can you put some perspective on that for me? How many A4 sheets is that?
Grant 02:13
It's about 100. I's supposed to be double space. So it's not double space yet. And it's 119 pages. Well, it's gonna be double that soon. But yeah, I mean, I've just handed it in literally two days ago to my editor, who's already pulled me up on some in-text citation stuff and Bibliography references, which is not my strong point.
Donna 02:39
I don't think that's anyone strong point, to be fair.
Grant 02:44
It is, for some, I'm sure. But not me.
Donna 02:47
I can relate to that.
Grant 02:49
And so that's been my world for the last, you know, intensely for the last three months. And in total, just over three years. Since Teach A Man to Fish. I was pretty much, in the last year of producing Teach A Man To Fish I was actually starting this whole research and creative production journey.
Donna 03:16
Fabulous journey. So take us back. Back when you were at high school. What did you think was going to be your path - your future - were thinking about going to uni at that point?
Grant 03:28
Yeah.
Donna 03:30
We always asked this question so that people can relate a bit to your journey and see if that connects with them. So often, I think at high school, you think you've got to have it all sorted out, you know what you're going to do. It's all going to fall into place, because that's how it's kind of taught to you. But the reality can be very different. So I'm just wondering what your reality was?
Grant 03:49
It was very, very weird. Because high school I had no idea. Well, I thought I had an idea, but it was definitely not the right idea. I actually wanted to be a medical doctor. Because there was someone really significant in our family who did some amazing things. Dr. Victor Fazio - who's passed now - he was from this area. And you know, he did some amazing stuff in bowel cancer surgery and came up with the first internal colostomy bag and all this crazy stuff that he did in the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio. So I really aspired to be like him because he was larger than life in our family and the only one at that stage that, you know, held that sort of status and just did amazing stuff and so aspired to do that. And I did three unit maths and chemistry and physics and when I sat down with my career's advisor to tell him what I wanted to do? He laughed at me. So, yeah, that's really helpful. Thanks, man. Like, okay, you don't think I'm gonna be a doctor? Well, what is it then?
Donna 05:23
And look at you now! Almost Dr. Grant Saunders.
Grant 05:27
Not a medical one. But, um, yeah, so I had no idea. I was creative at school. I really enjoyed writing. Enjoyed English. I wasn't even a trained musician. But I took on music in Year 11 and 12. Because I love music.
Donna 05:53
Can I mention the band just in case that resonates?
Grant 05:56
We're gonna go on a tangent!
Donna 06:02
The band that some of you may relate to back in the day was Circle of Fate.
Grant 06:06
Yes.
Donna 06:06
And they were brilliant.
Grant 06:07
Yeah, that was so fun to be a part of that. It was just some of the best memories I have, and treasure. Those guys that I collaborated with and performed with, recorded with, that was crazy time, early 90s. So it was pretty much fresh out of high school. And so going back to that journey, I didn't get the marks to do medicine, but I still thought I was going to be a doctor. So I went to did do a Bachelor of Science at Newcastle University. And I was a pretty lazy student - to be honest, I spent a lot of time at the bar on the hill, because I like music. And I just liked a good time as well, you know. Back then, there were a lot of people that were in that sort of space. Uni was, you know, it was fun. That the first year especially.
Donna 07:21
That is the fun of uni, half the time that is the attraction. Did you go there straight from high school?
Grant 07:30
Yeah, I did go straight there. No, I didn't have a gap year. And I wish I did. I think that's a really good thing for people to do. Especially if they don't know exactly what they want, take a bit of time out and work out what it is that tickles your fancy. Because it took me a while to realize that I was finally a creative art student. Because I went from there to physio therapy at Cumberland College in Sydney. Did a year there, did actually pretty well. But I ended up coming back to work in the band Circle of Fake because I was coming back and forwards anyway. Back to Taree and I had a love at that time, who was also bringing me back and so I got involved with the band. But I was also working here at Koori Youth Network. And that opened my eyes to a lot of things that were really hard to deal with that an early age, I was 21 at the time. So I was working in the child protection space. And I won't go into all the details about that, because it's pretty heavy going. But I had sort of realized that education is power. And I really, I felt out of my depth when I was working at the coalface with young people who were disclosing stuff that was really hard. And I felt that I needed to get an education to be more effectual, so I went for social sciences because I thought that maybe I would get into policy. Try and better the situation there. And again, I lasted for about three months. I went from here, working in Redfern as a youth development officer, and it was a little bit of a case of out of the fryer into the fire. It was hard going there. And at that time I was also - Koori Radio was just down the road from us in Edward Street, so I was working at the aptly named University Settlement in Redfern - so ironic, that name - but anyway, I worked at Koori Radio voluntarily as a radio broadcaster. And it was in this little shoe box. It was where Koori Radio began on a terrace house on Edward Street and Chippendale and I got to meet all these amazing Aboriginal people in media. And I still working in the band at the time because we all moved to Sydney. So all these artistic sort of things I was being naturally attracted to so it was the band, it was the music, creative writing with the band, it was, you know, being introduced to Aboriginal media and the power of media. And then someone who's very influential in my life today - Uncle Ken Canning - was working at Jumbunna at the Student Support Unit at UTS. And I actually graduated from Sydney University Settlement to work at Jumbunna in Student Support. And Uncle Ken was working there, and he was actually instrumental in building the student support network, or base for Indigenous students, because he was one of two at UTS. Now there's like, over 400, or 500, I think, in higher degrees and everything. He had a huge battle, he was an art student. And I just look up to him as one of my mentors, because he's heavily involved in social activism as well. And tireless. He's a poet. He actually was on the interview panel when I came in as a prospective student. And I said that I wanted to be a social science student at that time. And he said "You know, I think you're better in the arts field" and I didn't listen to him.
Donna 12:22
You think you know what you're doing, right?
Grant 12:23
Exactly right. And then, three months later, like I said, I switched over to arts and I stuck with it. I actually did my gap year - or two years - actually mid degree. So I did a couple of years doing really well, fell in love again with someone else and she was from over the other side of the world. And I went on a journey with with her, got involved in another band with a whole bunch of refugees from Africa, from San Diego, from the Czech Republic -it was a huge multi cultural mix all of us living in in Zurich, Switzerland.
Donna 13:14
Music brings you together.
Grant 13:15
Yeah, and I got homesick, the relationship didn't work out. And I came back home with my tail between my legs and went back to mum and dad.
Donna 13:30
As you do - take back the single room.
Grant 13:36
I sort of came back full circle in a way - well, one of the circles - and came back to work as a Teacher Assistant at Taree Public School. And then I started to feel that urge to go back and finish my degree. And it was around the 2000 Olympic Games. And so I went back and got some work at Koori Radio because they needed someone to put together a grant submission to get a new studio and also vie for a full time license. So, I feel very proud that I was a part of getting Koori Radio on air full time, it was a team job, but I was in that team. I was production manager during the Olympics. So I was organizing a whole bunch of international celebrities and media and stuff like that. And it was amazing and inspirational. And I got back to finishing my degree.
Donna 14:50
Now was this a degree in social sciences?
Grant 14:53
No. Bachelor of Arts, in Communications.
Donna 14:57
Which was then and still is very appropriate. You did find the right path.
Grant 15:02
Yes, I did. And I went on from there to start the Master's in Media, Arts and Production and focused on documentary. So in my arts degree, I focused on Aboriginal studies and writing and sound design. So I had a double sort of production major. So sound design was a natural sort of fit because of my music background. And so I used that time because a lot of students, they just do the bare minimum to get across the line. But I spent hours and hours on end in those studios, really getting to know it, and recorded bands and stuff like that. And I lasted a year and then went over to Master's in Audio Architecture at Sydney Uni, which is a whole different level...
Donna 16:01
I'm feeling that by this time, you're actually finding that you do love studying. That there's something in it for you.
Grant 16:06
I just didn't know what I wanted! But I was in the documentary - going back to the Masters (Media, Arts, Production) at UTS. It was a documentary that I was really into. But I was into sound design as well. And they wouldn't let me play around with the sound design tools while I was there doing the Masters which frustrated me, and because I love playing in there. But that's why I moved over to Sydney Uni because it was all about architectural acoustics and sound design and music production. But meanwhile, I was applying to the Australian Film, Television & Radio School. And after three attempts I got in. It's really hard to get into that place. It's really competitive. And I went into do sound design, but they said, because of my background experience and that they said, "Look, we really want to take on students that we can, you know, teach more." And I was like, "well, that's why I'm here." And the thing is, like this technology, as you would know, is ever evolving. And that was a really poor excuse to deny me access through that door. But they offered me the Masters to go for the MA Honors, and I really was a bit confused about it because I went to apply online. And the only course that was in the realm of MA Honors was documentary. But that confused them because I applied for the documentary strand. But I think the sound design department wanted me to apply for sound design, Master of Arts in Sound Design. You know, they didn't know where to put me because documentary had already filled all their places for the students. And so I was in limbo land in afters feeling like a dweeb, and not knowing where a fitted and and then documentary sort of embraced me, took me in even though there wasn't really much space for me. But so I did my first master's thesis and film and it was on Aboriginal hip hop. That was 2004-2006. So that's my long, long winded education pathway. I want people can learn from that. But when you think about it, what would you be doing if you hadn't have done that? It's become your life and your whole creative career that you've got wrapped around you now? So not long after that you would have started in to Teach A Man To Fish? How long did it take to make that documentary? Well, I didn't get a job in the media, in film and TV, immediately after. I went back to higher education and went to Macquarie University and worked in student support there. And then there was a position that came up at the ABC. Like an internship. I think they actually headhunted me. They found out that I'd finished and they called me up and asked me if I was interested - you know, try a few months, and I ended up getting a permanent position. I was there for almost five years with the indigenous programs unit. I was a TV producer, producing half hour, a lot of magazine style content, but a lot of documentary stuff as well. I produced over 20 or so, broadcasted programs while I was there, and I got to travel all over Australia and meet some unbelievable people, you know: Uncle Jimmy Little, Gurrumul, Linda Burney. The stories I was able to tell, while I was there was amazing. And I learnt so much about documentary filmmaking, because it's a TV world is very crunch, it's like you've got a certain amount of time to make a program. And so you have to be very diligent and disciplined. You've got to get things like the research, the writing, the treatment, getting the production schedule, and then paper edit, editing online, the whole works right through to the credits rolling. I learned so much about the craft and I finished there because, just recently, there was a big wave of redundancies. And I chose to take it. Because these workspaces, they can be a little bit poisonous as well, so has sort of got out of there because of that. Not to spoil the whole thing, because it was amazing. And there was some great people that I worked with there as well. But it was time to get out. It was 2011. And that's when we all decided - the family - to pick up and head north. And we got to Newcastle. And then I was lucky enough to pick up work as a teacher at TAFE in Media Industry, Creative Industries, and Media and Film, TV. And also Aboriginal Studies, the introductory course at Wollotuka in Newcastle Uni. I had a couple of part time lecturing and tutoring jobs. And then I was getting really sick of that. I was just sick of being a teacher for some reason.
Donna 22:49
I imagine it's quite draining. You're very giving of yourself.
Grant 22:54
And TAFE especially (sorry TAFE). The administrative side of TAFE was so painful, the amount of paperwork you had to produce to justify the course that you're going to teach, and the assessments you were going to do, it was just so involved. University was a lot different. It was someone else doing all that really hard stuff. I just had to go in and tutor and mark people's papers and stuff. So I got sick of it. And that was the time that dad's younger brother and partner in crime on the water decided to leave and create another pathway for himself. That's Uncle Steve, who's now got a full time job at Council after 30 years of working with my father, which I tell the whole story about in the film. But like I say, in the film, I always wanted to be a fisherman. At the time, I wanted to get out of teaching, I missed home. It was just a no-brainer, it just all fell into place. And I always wanted to make a film about it. Actually, you know, way back when I was doing the documentary strand at UTS, I actually wrote my first treatment of the film back then. That was 2002. So it took 16 years for that thing to become a reality.
Donna 24:37
Your dad was such a star of that movie.
Grant 24:40
Yeah, totally. He gets stopped everywhere. Yeah. "Love you in that film." "WHAT ABOUT ME?"
Donna 24:50
Oh, were you in it? So the movie - are you allowed to talk about the doco that you've just been working on? Where's that at? Are we going to be able to see that soon?
Grant 24:54
Exactly! Oh, gosh - because it's a music documentary, the licensing is ridiculous. Because there's so much wall to wall music, right? And it's got some huge acts in there, including Kendrick Lamar's video, a little bit of KRS-One, it's got Public Enemy, it's got N.W.A., it's got all these massive people who I'm just dreaming who are just going to sort of go: "Yeah, man, we love this documentary, yeah. Just do whatever you want with it. We only want $100."
Donna 25:42
So you're thinking this might take 16 years from now?
Grant 25:45
Oh gosh, I'm hoping no. We've been offered a pre sale, I think I can say from NITV. Which is amazing. And I'll be applying to Screen Australia in the next producer program round in January to get a good whack of the funding that we need to pay for all that licensing and also an online editor and an animator and a few other oddbods, sound mixer. There's still a long way to go. We've actually got a project on the Documentary Australia Foundation website. So it's a philanthropic sort of crowdfunding site. And so far, we've been able to get almost $5k from it, from donations, just through Facebook promotion. Lots of friends have jumped on and supported it. So big shout out to them. The film's called 'Just Us: What Hip Hop Wants You To Know'. And it's really all about that it's sort of going into local, indigenous and socially conscious hip hop music from Australia and sort of breaking down or deconstructing the lyrics of some of these artists like Briggs and Dobby and L-FRESH The LION. There's a whole bunch of local artists in there who are doing amazing things. mirror reflects, Maya Jupiter, Remi - I could just go on, Sampa the Great. The film is about visualizing and getting other experts in criminology and sociology to talk to what these artists are talking about. Because when I've been writing about it, I look at them as outside criminologists, because they're making critical comment on our criminal justice system in this country. Because Just Us, that title comes from, until there is justice, there's just us. So that's been the underpinning ethos of conscious hip hop from the very beginnings, that it was about speaking truth to power, about revolutionary texts that disrupt the mainstream consciousness and bringing hidden truths front and center. Because, you know, artists like A.B. Original and Briggs and Sampa the Great and those guys finally being embraced by the mainstream audience, like a young audience of non Aboriginal kids who are loving this stuff from Baker boy, and just eating it up. But I just felt that this film was needed to bring context to what these guys are talking about. Because otherwise -
Donna 29:33
They're really like the musical journalists, really. It's putting those crucial words to music so it actually gets into your brain rather than sitting on your coffee table.
Grant 29:41
Oh, that's exactly what Chuck D from public enemy said. We are the black CNN. We are street journalists. It's about offering that audience that is right into this music more insight into what they're talking about, because I just felt like maybe it'll get lost, you know? Because I mean, those songs lasts about three minutes, and they might download it when they get home and, you know, listen to it again and go, well, what's that guy talking about?
Donna 30:27
I hope that this can get the recognition it deserves and Screen Australia and those that you're applying to jump on board with that because there has been such a groundswell in the last I guess, in my count, like the last two years. So it's totally the right time for it. I hope it doesn't have to get shelved for 10 years or something like hopefully, you can get all those ticks from those big names.
Grant 30:54
I mean, if those big names don't come on board, the local hip hop community is right behind it. The guys that I interviewed for this are right behind it. And I think they'll help. The local hip hop community will help. Because this is what we're about.
Donna 31:18
Well, Grant, thank you for sharing your amazing career path so far with us. And I know there's far more to come on your career path. But that's wonderful. And I think you're now living back locally. Is that true? Which is just wonderful that you moved back to this area. So thank you for that. Thank you from the community, not just for me. But to have your talent and your richness back in this area is wonderful. So thank you. Thank you for making your time available.
Grant 31:44
Thank you so much
Donna 31:45
It's been a great interview. Thank you, Grant.
Grant 31:47
Oh, pleasure! Pleasure, pleasure!
Intro 31:49
Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Six Degrees Podcast. This podcast is produced by UpBound Business Consultants and is brought to you by Taree Universities Campus. Based on the New South Wales Barrington Coast, TUC a hub for supporting Distance Education study for university students with campus facilities, mentoring, post grad career opportunities, and more. If you'd like to share your story, you can send us an email at podcast@tareeuni.org.au and let us know your unconventional road to a degree. Until next time.